The Orion's Arm Universe Project Forums

Full Version: Thought Experiment: Operational Incompleteness — A Physicalist Deduction and Formaliz
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3
In a serialized long-form science fiction work (updated to Chapter 6, non-English), I propose three rough propositions as a physicalist deduction regarding future superintelligent ASI. Professional critique is welcomed:
1.Cross-Level Explanation Cost (Observer-Relative Hierarchy): The reason we cannot comprehend future superintelligent ASI is the prohibitive cost of explanation across capability levels—for a specific observer category O_h (human or a specific AGI), it manifests as explanatory inaccessibility under channel capacity limits and energy budgets, rather than an issue of epistemological/ontological privilege. (Here, "hierarchy" refers to a partial order defined by capability level, verifiable granularity, and interface bandwidth/energy constraints.)
Specifically, For any observer class O_h, end-to-end verification is constrained by (i) an information budget (capacity-limited), (ii) a replication budget (samples and energy), and (iii) a pedagogy-induced compression loss.
These constraints form a multi-dimensional resource vector; a formal unified cost function would require dimensional alignment.
When the verification resources and reproducibility cost required by the decision complexity of ASI exceed O_h's integrated information and energy budgets, explanation becomes a physically unattainable operation.
2.ASI's "NP → Engineering-Practical Quasi-P" is merely a behavioral-layer phenomenon relative to our observer category, not a complexity-layer "absolute irreducibility".
The ability exhibited by ASI at the behavioral layer—"transforming NP-class problems into engineering-solvable quasi-P problems"—holds only relative to O_h. This is not an absolute irreducibility at the complexity level but a behavioral pattern emergent under O_h's observational scale. Therefore, the so-called "unexplainability" is essentially a mismatch in verification bandwidth between the observer category and the target system.
3."Operational Incompleteness Proposition": For any theory T, if the amount of evidence and reproducibility cost required to distinguish it from a competing theory T' within an error tolerance \epsilon exceeds the verification bandwidth and energy budget of observer O, then for O, T and T' become operationally indistinguishable, even if falsifiable in principle. Thus, "explainability" is not a pure epistemological issue but a problem of distinguishability under resource constraints.
Initially, the third proposition used "Physicalist Incompleteness". In revision, it was changed to "Indistinguishability", aligning more fully with the theoretical context of cognitive complexity.
【Formalization】
Let theory T and competing theory T' be distinguishable within error tolerance \epsilon. If the evidence quantity required to distinguish them exceeds observer O's:
· Total Verifiable Information Budget: \int_{0}^{\text{Life}(O)} \text{Bandwidth}(O) , dt (units: bits)
· Available Energy Budget: E_{\text{budget}}(O)
Then for O, T and T' enter a state of operational indistinguishability. This is the Operational Incompleteness Proposition. It can be analogized to Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems and Computational Irreducibility, placing them within the resource constraints of physical observers.
4.Key Corollaries: Verification Asymmetry and Heuristic Projection
a. The Nature of Intelligence and the Role of Consciousness
· Intelligence: Mathematical description and compression of the possibility space (combination, pruning, and dimensionality reduction of state spaces).
· Consciousness: The here-and-now instantiation of this description, adding no computational power, merely serving as the execution vehicle.
b. Observer-Relativity of Dominant Heuristics
Under the test distribution and resource constraints of a given observer category O, a certain strategy family may statistically dominate all known candidate heuristics over time, becoming a dominant heuristic family (not in the standard hyper-heuristic sense, but meaning a persistently unbeaten strategy relative to O's scope). This does not imply global optimality, only that it remains unfalsified within O's observational scope.
c. Verification Inequality
Define S_{\text{verify}}(\text{ASI_Heuristic}) as: the minimum number of computational steps and integrated energy required, within O_h's complexity budget, to replicate the ASI heuristic path and verify its local constraints. Then:
S_{\text{verify}}(\text{ASI_Heuristic}) \gg \int_{0}^{\text{Life}(O_h)} \text{Bandwidth}(O_h) , dt
This value cannot be certified by the ASI in a way that is verifiable by O_h under the same constraints; it can only be estimated through human audit sampling and parallel replication, subject to the same limitations.
5.Extension: Projection Loss in Explanation
The "explanation" generated by the ASI's internal principles at the O_h interface layer is merely a projection of the high-dimensional decision process onto a low-dimensional channel. If the required bitrate for a faithful projection exceeds O_h's channel capacity, an explanatory gap arises:
The explanatory cost of the ASI's heuristic path, at the human-visible interface layer, may only equal the projection length of its internal generative principles—but the description length (in bits) required for that projection has already exceeded the human observer's lifetime information budget.
6.Theoretical Positioning: Distinction from Classical Undecidability
· Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems: Address self-referential limits within formal systems.
· Computational Irreducibility: Describes the inherent complexity between a system and its description.
· Operational Incompleteness: Emphasizes the relational property between theory and observer pair, focusing on the gap between verification bandwidth and physical limits, thereby anchoring unexplainability at the resource level, not purely logical or computational.
7.Regarding Falsifiability
The above explanatory framework can be deemed valid if: (i) under reproducible evaluation, AI performance continuously improves, while (ii) the growth rate of end-to-end verification and explanation burden outpaces the verification capability of the observer category.
Note: This text can be viewed as a physicalist supplement to the "Intelligence Ceiling Hypothesis"—we need not assume an absolute epistemological barrier; merely acknowledging the constraints of channel capacity and energy budget is sufficient to deduce "unexplainability" or "relative irreducibility".
【References and Perspective Connections】
1.Mario Brčić, Roman V. Yampolskiy|Impossibility Results in AI: A Survey|2023
Note: Places "Indistinguishability" within the spectrum of AI "Impossibility" results; this text expands based on physical quantities like channel capacity/energy.
2. F. P. Adler|Minimum energy cost of an observation|1955
Note: Provides a thermodynamic lower bound for the energy cost of "obtaining information through observation", supporting "explanation/verification is a physical operation and necessarily consumes resources".
3.Pamela Abshire, Andreas G. Andreou|Capacity and energy cost of information in biological and silicon photoreceptors|2001
Note: Quantifies "capacity-energy coupling" from a biological/silicon perspective, supporting inherent capability differences among observer categories due to physical construction.
4.Claude E. Shannon|A Mathematical Theory of Communication|1948
Note: Establishes the fundamental language of channel capacity and information rate, supporting terms like "verification bandwidth" in the text.
5.Rolf Landauer|Irreversibility and Heat Generation in the Computing Process|1961
Note: Links information processing to heat dissipation, providing the classic anchor for "computation/explanation has an unavoidable energy cost floor".
6.A. N. Kolmogorov|Three approaches to the quantitative definition of information|1965
Note: Formalizes "explanation = compression/shortest description", providing the conceptual coordinates for "description length exceeding budget → explanatory gap".
7.Kurt Gödel|On Formally Undecidable Propositions…|1931
Note: Serves as a prototype reference for "incompleteness"; but the text emphasizes "operational inaccessibility" under resource constraints, analogous but not equivalent.
8.Stephen A. Cook|The Complexity of Theorem-Proving Procedures|1971
Note: Provides the NP-completeness baseline context, facilitating our limitation of "NP → quasi-P" as a behavioral-layer phenomenon relative to observer and distribution.
Er - what is this from?

It sort of reads/looks like something copy/pasted from a paper/PDF somewhere. If that's the case, can you please provide a link to the location online so we can more readily read it there?

More generally, can you provide some sense of what we should be looking to get out of reading this, whether in terms of it being an interesting/relevant topic given OA's premises or a lead in to something you would like to discuss in more depth or something else.

Thanks!

Todd
I'm definitely not qualified to provide proper feedback for the content of this paper(?) but I noticed you refer to superintelligent ASI. Is that not redundant?
(01-30-2026, 12:25 AM)Drashner1 Wrote: [ -> ]Er - what is this from?

It sort of reads/looks like something copy/pasted from a paper/PDF somewhere. If that's the case, can you please provide a link to the location online so we can more readily read it there?

More generally, can you provide some sense of what we should be looking to get out of reading this, whether in terms of it being an interesting/relevant topic given OA's premises or a lead in to something you would like to discuss in more depth or something else.

Thanks!

Todd

Hi — it’s not copied from a paper or PDF. It comes from the “technical appendix” portion of my serialized long-form sci-fi setting, and I used AI to translate it into English, which is why it reads in a more academic/paper-like style.

I can’t easily drop a direct link here because the overall work is fairly long and distributed across multiple chapter updates, so it’s not in a single tidy URL.

In short, the story is built around a core premise about “intelligence evolution and how a civilization responds,” and it’s my way of exploring what I see as a fundamental survival/ontological crisis humanity is facing in the real world. The propositions are meant as in-universe physicalist deductions to frame that discussion.
(01-30-2026, 01:35 AM)Godd Howard Wrote: [ -> ]I'm definitely not qualified to provide proper feedback for the content of this paper(?) but I noticed you refer to superintelligent ASI. Is that not redundant?

You’re right to flag that. “ASI” already expands to artificial superintelligence, so “superintelligent ASI” is technically redundant.

That was a translation issue with the AI, and I apologize for my oversight in checking.

Thanks for catching it.
(02-02-2026, 12:13 AM)Cognisynth Wrote: [ -> ]Hi — it’s not copied from a paper or PDF. It comes from the “technical appendix” portion of my serialized long-form sci-fi setting, and I used AI to translate it into English, which is why it reads in a more academic/paper-like style.

I can’t easily drop a direct link here because the overall work is fairly long and distributed across multiple chapter updates, so it’s not in a single tidy URL.

In short, the story is built around a core premise about “intelligence evolution and how a civilization responds,” and it’s my way of exploring what I see as a fundamental survival/ontological crisis humanity is facing in the real world. The propositions are meant as in-universe physicalist deductions to frame that discussion.

Ah, got it. Thanks for clearing that up. Smile

When I've got a moment, I'll give it a read thru with the above in mind and post any thoughts that come to mind on it.

Thanks!

Todd
(02-02-2026, 06:35 AM)Drashner1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-02-2026, 12:13 AM)Cognisynth Wrote: [ -> ]Hi — it’s not copied from a paper or PDF. It comes from the “technical appendix” portion of my serialized long-form sci-fi setting, and I used AI to translate it into English, which is why it reads in a more academic/paper-like style.

I can’t easily drop a direct link here because the overall work is fairly long and distributed across multiple chapter updates, so it’s not in a single tidy URL.

In short, the story is built around a core premise about “intelligence evolution and how a civilization responds,” and it’s my way of exploring what I see as a fundamental survival/ontological crisis humanity is facing in the real world. The propositions are meant as in-universe physicalist deductions to frame that discussion.

Ah, got it. Thanks for clearing that up. Smile

When I've got a moment, I'll give it a read thru with the above in mind and post any thoughts that come to mind on it.

Thanks!

Todd
Looking forward to your professional critique!
So, I gave this a read thru. I will freely admit that I'm not overly familiar (and in some cases possibly barely familiar) with the terminology you're using here, so I could be missing or misunderstanding some of what it seems you are aiming to say here. If so, please let me know and we can discuss in more depth to increase my understanding, which may in turn modify my conclusions from the initial read. Anyway.

Speaking on general principles, you seem to be saying that ASI (as conceived in your setting and honestly most writings on the subject) is a matter of quantitative difference rather than qualitative. In other words, an ASI might have all the intellectual capabilities of a human (since humans presumably represent the peak of intelligence that we know exists right now), but on a larger (possibly much larger) scale but would not have capabilities that do not exist in humans. So more memory, more ability to handle complexity, more capacity to handle more sensory inputs, more calculation ability, etc. - but not a 'Quality X' that is equivalent to the difference (for example) between human self-awareness and the state of a lifeform completely lacking self-awareness.

From here, your Point 1 is very similar (or identical) to an idea that has come up in OA discussions about superintelligence that I tend to refer to as 'brute force incomprehensibility'. Basically, if a concept or communication generated by an ASI requires more bandwidth/memory to understand/hold in one's head than a human (or equivalent) mind possesses that communication/concept is physically impossible for a human mind to understand. Splitting up the communication/concept among multiple people doesn't help because each person will only have a portion, which is either incomplete or even meaningless without the rest of the information - and no one person can contain all of the information. Going through the concept/communication in a serial manner doesn't work (either because it simply isn't a linear thing) or because at some point in the process the limits of memory are hit and the human brain either freezes up or starts forgetting the 'front end' of the concept to continue making room such that by the time the end is reached, the beginning is no longer remembered or comprehended.

Your Point 3 seems to be an extension of point 1 and saying that any two theories that each require more capacity than a human mind possesses (so presumably ASI generated) cannot be compared or judged effectively by a human mind since that mind is physically incapable (in terms of processing/memory/bandwidth) of comprehending either one.

I'm not entirely clear on what Point 2 is saying so can't really comment on it one way or the other at this point. Can you provide further explanation on it, please?

As far as any critique of the concept (and assuming my evaluation of the core idea is correct) - I don't really have any in the sense of 'your idea is wrong, here is a more correct alternative'. Quite simply, we don't really 'know' what an ASI might be like at this point so it isn't really possible to make firm statements about right or wrong. I will say that your characterization as written doesn't seem to allow for qualitative differences in ASI or the processors it might run on compared to human brains/AGI. For example, if/when quantum computing becomes a significant thing and demonstrates the sort of capabilities theorized for it now in real life, and if QC processors could be made part of an ASI, then that would seem to shift at least some of its capabilities out of the quantitative realm of 'amount of processors and/or bandwidth' to a qualitative realm of 'type of processor' such that a 'quantum ASI' (or ASI that uses some mix of quantum and classical processing) might be capable of concepts/communication that no amount of classical processors could address in this universe.

Beyond quantum computing, we might postulate the existence of additional mental capacities/qualities that humans/AGI simply don't have but which are allowed by the laws of physics. Think something like the aforementioned difference between self-awareness and lack thereof and trying to explain a concept rooted in the former to an organism completely lacking it. If such qualitative elements do exist and require something like a very specific type of software or algorithm or data processing hardware structure to operate rather than just more brute force processing then human equivalent minds might find them equally incomprehensible even if the total memory/bandwidth required for them is within human capacities. Perhaps analogous to the old idea of trying to explain color to someone born without sight or the like. If an ASI generates concepts that are both too large for human capacities and involve QC or equivalent and involve concepts rooted in qualities humans don't even possess, the issue becomes potentially even more intractable.

Taking this back to OA - We tend to mostly play in the quantitative space much like what you seem to be describing but also say the transapients operate to some degree (perhaps mostly) in the realms mentioned in the paragraph above. We talk about 'Qualities X' - different new mental capacities that manifest at different S-levels and are equivalent to the self-awareness element mentioned above. That's much harder to describe so we are unfortunately much thinner on details there. We don't much play with QC at this time, but presume it does exist in the setting in some fashion.

Anyway, that's my 2c on this so far. Hopefully, I'm not so far off base in understanding what you're saying that the above is totally useless. Tongue

Looking forward to your thoughts on the matter either way.

Todd
(02-13-2026, 12:00 AM)Drashner1 Wrote: [ -> ]So, I gave this a read thru. I will freely admit that I'm not overly familiar (and in some cases possibly barely familiar) with the terminology you're using here, so I could be missing or misunderstanding some of what it seems you are aiming to say here. If so, please let me know and we can discuss in more depth to increase my understanding, which may in turn modify my conclusions from the initial read. Anyway.

Speaking on general principles, you seem to be saying that ASI (as conceived in your setting and honestly most writings on the subject) is a matter of quantitative difference rather than qualitative. In other words, an ASI might have all the intellectual capabilities of a human (since humans presumably represent the peak of intelligence that we know exists right now), but on a larger (possibly much larger) scale but would not have capabilities that do not exist in humans. So more memory, more ability to handle complexity, more capacity to handle more sensory inputs, more calculation ability, etc. - but not a 'Quality X' that is equivalent to the difference (for example) between human self-awareness and the state of a lifeform completely lacking self-awareness.

From here, your Point 1 is very similar (or identical) to an idea that has come up in OA discussions about superintelligence that I tend to refer to as 'brute force incomprehensibility'. Basically, if a concept or communication generated by an ASI requires more bandwidth/memory to understand/hold in one's head than a human (or equivalent) mind possesses that communication/concept is physically impossible for a human mind to understand. Splitting up the communication/concept among multiple people doesn't help because each person will only have a portion, which is either incomplete or even meaningless without the rest of the information - and no one person can contain all of the information. Going through the concept/communication in a serial manner doesn't work (either because it simply isn't a linear thing) or because at some point in the process the limits of memory are hit and the human brain either freezes up or starts forgetting the 'front end' of the concept to continue making room such that by the time the end is reached, the beginning is no longer remembered or comprehended.

Your Point 3 seems to be an extension of point 1 and saying that any two theories that each require more capacity than a human mind possesses (so presumably ASI generated) cannot be compared or judged effectively by a human mind since that mind is physically incapable (in terms of processing/memory/bandwidth) of comprehending either one.

I'm not entirely clear on what Point 2 is saying so can't really comment on it one way or the other at this point. Can you provide further explanation on it, please?

As far as any critique of the concept (and assuming my evaluation of the core idea is correct) - I don't really have any in the sense of 'your idea is wrong, here is a more correct alternative'. Quite simply, we don't really 'know' what an ASI might be like at this point so it isn't really possible to make firm statements about right or wrong. I will say that your characterization as written doesn't seem to allow for qualitative differences in ASI or the processors it might run on compared to human brains/AGI. For example, if/when quantum computing becomes a significant thing and demonstrates the sort of capabilities theorized for it now in real life, and if QC processors could be made part of an ASI, then that would seem to shift at least some of its capabilities out of the quantitative realm of 'amount of processors and/or bandwidth' to a qualitative realm of 'type of processor' such that a 'quantum ASI' (or ASI that uses some mix of quantum and classical processing) might be capable of concepts/communication that no amount of classical processors could address in this universe.

Beyond quantum computing, we might postulate the existence of additional mental capacities/qualities that humans/AGI simply don't have but which are allowed by the laws of physics. Think something like the aforementioned difference between self-awareness and lack thereof and trying to explain a concept rooted in the former to an organism completely lacking it. If such qualitative elements do exist and require something like a very specific type of software or algorithm or data processing hardware structure to operate rather than just more brute force processing then human equivalent minds might find them equally incomprehensible even if the total memory/bandwidth required for them is within human capacities. Perhaps analogous to the old idea of trying to explain color to someone born without sight or the like. If an ASI generates concepts that are both too large for human capacities and involve QC or equivalent and involve concepts rooted in qualities humans don't even possess, the issue becomes potentially even more intractable.

Taking this back to OA - We tend to mostly play in the quantitative space much like what you seem to be describing but also say the transapients operate to some degree (perhaps mostly) in the realms mentioned in the paragraph above. We talk about 'Qualities X' - different new mental capacities that manifest at different S-levels and are equivalent to the self-awareness element mentioned above. That's much harder to describe so we are unfortunately much thinner on details there. We don't much play with QC at this time, but presume it does exist in the setting in some fashion.

Anyway, that's my 2c on this so far. Hopefully, I'm not so far off base in understanding what you're saying that the above is totally useless. Tongue

Looking forward to your thoughts on the matter either way.

Todd

Thank you so much for such an in-depth and detailed discussion! I also sincerely apologize for not being able to reply in time!
Your summary of Points 1 and 3 is largely on target. Let me clarify the background assumptions a bit more explicitly, since I did compress quite a lot of structure into the original post.
1.What I mean by “observer” and “explanation”
I am not using “understanding” in a phenomenological sense. I am modeling an observer class O as a physically bounded system with:
• finite channel capacity
• finite lifetime-integrated energy budget
• finite memory and processing bandwidth
Explanation, in this setting, is equivalent to a resource-bounded discrimination task:
Given two competing models T and T′, can O distinguish them within error tolerance ε using its available verification bandwidth and energy?
If the required evidence volume and reproduction cost exceed the integral of O’s lifetime bandwidth and energy budget, then T and T′ become operationally indistinguishable for O — even if they are in principle falsifiable.
So “incomprehensibility” here is not mystical. It is a failure of resource-bounded statistical distinguishability.
That is the core of Points 1 and 3.


2.On “brute force incomprehensibility”

Your characterization is close, but I would sharpen it slightly.
There are at least three distinct failure modes:
• Compression failure
No explanation program significantly shorter than the behavior trace exists within O’s modeling language.
• Verification failure
Even if a candidate explanation exists, reproducing or validating it requires energy/time beyond O’s budget.
• Interface projection failure
The external explanation is only a projection of a much higher-dimensional internal generative process. The projection itself may already saturate O’s channel capacity.
So this is not merely “too much data to hold in one head.” It is that the entire verification pipeline may exceed physical bounds.

3.Clarifying Point 2 (this seems to be the main ambiguity)
I am not claiming NP → P in the complexity-theoretic sense.
The claim is distribution-relative.
Suppose ASI operates on a real-world task distribution D. On D, it exhibits empirical scaling behavior that is approximately polynomial under acceptable failure rates.
This does not imply worst-case collapse of complexity classes.
It implies that ASI has discovered structural regularities in D that allow effective compression of search space.
Why is this observer-relative?
Because what appears as “quasi-polynomial scaling” depends on:
• the observer’s algorithm library
• the observer’s representational language
• the observer’s resource budget
For O_h (humans / current AGI), the scaling collapse may look miraculous.
For O_asi, it may simply be a natural exploitation of structure in D.
Thus “NP → quasi-P” is a behavioral-layer phenomenon relative to a reference observer class.
It is not a claim about absolute irreducibility in complexity theory.


4.On quantum computing and qualitative processor shifts

You raise a good point about processor type.
Even if ASI uses hybrid quantum-classical architectures, two things remain true:
• It is still a physical system with bounded energy and channel constraints.
• It must interact with us through some classical interface layer.
Quantum processors may change constant factors, representation geometry, and search heuristics.
They do not automatically invalidate the resource-bounded distinguishability framework.
In fact, they may amplify asymmetry:
If part of ASI’s advantage comes from quantum state correlations that are non-clonable and not externally accessible, then any explanation presented to us must already be a classical projection of that process.
That increases projection loss.
So quantum enhancement strengthens the asymmetry thesis rather than undermines it.

5.On “Qualities X” and qualitative cognitive differences
I do not deny the possibility of qualitatively novel cognitive structures.
But I would reframe the issue operationally:
If a “Quality X” yields shorter explanation programs or lower verification cost within our resource bounds, then it becomes assimilable into our algorithmic vocabulary.
If it cannot be compressed into forms distinguishable within our budgets, then for us it remains operationally inaccessible.
So the difference between quantitative and qualitative shifts collapses into this question:
Does the new capacity alter our ability to discriminate models within our energy and bandwidth constraints?
If yes, it shifts the boundary.
If no, it manifests as operational incomprehensibility.
The framework is agnostic to whether the underlying cause is “more compute” or “new cognitive dimension.”

6.Where this leaves the core claim
The argument does not require positing an epistemological barrier or metaphysical gap.
It only requires acknowledging that:
• Observers are physically bounded systems.
• Verification is a resource-bounded process.
• Model distinguishability depends on bandwidth and energy.
If ASI capability growth outpaces verification capacity growth, then explanation burden will grow superlinearly relative to observer budgets.
At that point, incomprehensibility emerges as a physical scaling effect, not a mystical one.

7.A forward-looking question
Perhaps a more concrete way to frame the issue is this:
Do we expect AI capability scaling to increase faster than our collective verification bandwidth?
If yes, then operational indistinguishability should appear gradually — long before any “godlike” threshold.
That is a testable trajectory claim, not a metaphysical speculation.

I hope this clarifies what I was aiming at. I am very open to pushing this further, especially on the distribution-relative complexity point or on how we might formalize verification growth curves.
If I misunderstood any part of your critique, let me know and I’ll narrow in more precisely.
(02-13-2026, 12:00 AM)Drashner1 Wrote: [ -> ]So, I gave this a read thru. I will freely admit that I'm not overly familiar (and in some cases possibly barely familiar) with the terminology you're using here, so I could be missing or misunderstanding some of what it seems you are aiming to say here. If so, please let me know and we can discuss in more depth to increase my understanding, which may in turn modify my conclusions from the initial read. Anyway.

Speaking on general principles, you seem to be saying that ASI (as conceived in your setting and honestly most writings on the subject) is a matter of quantitative difference rather than qualitative. In other words, an ASI might have all the intellectual capabilities of a human (since humans presumably represent the peak of intelligence that we know exists right now), but on a larger (possibly much larger) scale but would not have capabilities that do not exist in humans. So more memory, more ability to handle complexity, more capacity to handle more sensory inputs, more calculation ability, etc. - but not a 'Quality X' that is equivalent to the difference (for example) between human self-awareness and the state of a lifeform completely lacking self-awareness.

From here, your Point 1 is very similar (or identical) to an idea that has come up in OA discussions about superintelligence that I tend to refer to as 'brute force incomprehensibility'. Basically, if a concept or communication generated by an ASI requires more bandwidth/memory to understand/hold in one's head than a human (or equivalent) mind possesses that communication/concept is physically impossible for a human mind to understand. Splitting up the communication/concept among multiple people doesn't help because each person will only have a portion, which is either incomplete or even meaningless without the rest of the information - and no one person can contain all of the information. Going through the concept/communication in a serial manner doesn't work (either because it simply isn't a linear thing) or because at some point in the process the limits of memory are hit and the human brain either freezes up or starts forgetting the 'front end' of the concept to continue making room such that by the time the end is reached, the beginning is no longer remembered or comprehended.

Your Point 3 seems to be an extension of point 1 and saying that any two theories that each require more capacity than a human mind possesses (so presumably ASI generated) cannot be compared or judged effectively by a human mind since that mind is physically incapable (in terms of processing/memory/bandwidth) of comprehending either one.

I'm not entirely clear on what Point 2 is saying so can't really comment on it one way or the other at this point. Can you provide further explanation on it, please?

As far as any critique of the concept (and assuming my evaluation of the core idea is correct) - I don't really have any in the sense of 'your idea is wrong, here is a more correct alternative'. Quite simply, we don't really 'know' what an ASI might be like at this point so it isn't really possible to make firm statements about right or wrong. I will say that your characterization as written doesn't seem to allow for qualitative differences in ASI or the processors it might run on compared to human brains/AGI. For example, if/when quantum computing becomes a significant thing and demonstrates the sort of capabilities theorized for it now in real life, and if QC processors could be made part of an ASI, then that would seem to shift at least some of its capabilities out of the quantitative realm of 'amount of processors and/or bandwidth' to a qualitative realm of 'type of processor' such that a 'quantum ASI' (or ASI that uses some mix of quantum and classical processing) might be capable of concepts/communication that no amount of classical processors could address in this universe.

Beyond quantum computing, we might postulate the existence of additional mental capacities/qualities that humans/AGI simply don't have but which are allowed by the laws of physics. Think something like the aforementioned difference between self-awareness and lack thereof and trying to explain a concept rooted in the former to an organism completely lacking it. If such qualitative elements do exist and require something like a very specific type of software or algorithm or data processing hardware structure to operate rather than just more brute force processing then human equivalent minds might find them equally incomprehensible even if the total memory/bandwidth required for them is within human capacities. Perhaps analogous to the old idea of trying to explain color to someone born without sight or the like. If an ASI generates concepts that are both too large for human capacities and involve QC or equivalent and involve concepts rooted in qualities humans don't even possess, the issue becomes potentially even more intractable.

Taking this back to OA - We tend to mostly play in the quantitative space much like what you seem to be describing but also say the transapients operate to some degree (perhaps mostly) in the realms mentioned in the paragraph above. We talk about 'Qualities X' - different new mental capacities that manifest at different S-levels and are equivalent to the self-awareness element mentioned above. That's much harder to describe so we are unfortunately much thinner on details there. We don't much play with QC at this time, but presume it does exist in the setting in some fashion.

Anyway, that's my 2c on this so far. Hopefully, I'm not so far off base in understanding what you're saying that the above is totally useless. Tongue

Looking forward to your thoughts on the matter either way.

Todd

Relation to OA-style Transapient Hierarchies

I want to briefly clarify how this framework differs from the way incomprehensibility is usually treated in OA discussions.

OA typically explains incomprehensibility through qualitative cognitive stratification: at higher S-levels, new mental capacities (“Qualities X”) emerge, and lower-level minds cannot access or instantiate those capacities. The barrier is framed as a difference in cognitive kind.

My argument does not depend on such discontinuities.

Operational incomprehensibility can arise even under purely continuous scaling, with no new cognitive category introduced. If capability growth outpaces verification bandwidth growth, then at some point the cost of distinguishing models exceeds the observer’s lifetime-integrated resource budget. At that point, theories become operationally indistinguishable regardless of whether the underlying system possesses a new “quality.”

In other words:

OA framing:
Incomprehensibility emerges because higher minds have new cognitive dimensions.

This framework:
Incomprehensibility emerges because verification is a resource-bounded physical process.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Qualitative shifts may exist. Hybrid processors may exist. New representational geometries may exist.

But none of those are required for asymmetry to appear.

Even if intelligence scales smoothly and continuously, without discrete S-level jumps, a verification gap will still open once performance scaling exceeds audit scaling.

That makes the argument orthogonal to the S-level narrative. It neither denies nor relies on qualitative stratification.

Instead of asking, “Does a higher S-level possess new mental faculties?” the question becomes:

How does verification capacity scale relative to capability?

If the slopes diverge, incomprehensibility follows as a physical consequence.

From that perspective, S-level thresholds may mark phenomenological differences, but they are not necessary conditions for operational asymmetry.

That is the structural distinction I am trying to highlight.
Pages: 1 2 3